THE LEGAL ATTACHE PART 2: LOBSTERS IN A BOX

True Spies, The Legal Attache Part 2: Lobsters in a Box

++DISCLAIMER: This episode contains strong language throughout.

Welcome to True Spies. Week by week, mission by mission, you’ll hear the true stories behind the world’s greatest espionage operations. You’ll meet the people who navigate this secret world. What do they know? What are their skills? And what would you do in their position? I’m Vanessa Kirby, and this is True Spies, The Legal Attache Part 2: Lobsters in a Box

KATHY STEARMAN: I got to the point where I thought, “Okay, so there are these men inside the embassy - who built the embassy, who work inside the embassy - and are privy to classified information. And they are willing to sell out their country. They're willing to sell out the United States for a blowjob.

NARRATOR: Not what you were expecting to hear from a true spy? Well, Kathy Stearman is no average true spy. In all the FBI’s long history, she was one of the first women to become a legal attache, or Legat, the most senior agent the bureau has stationed at US Embassies around the world. As Legat, Kathy spent much of her time putting away terrorists throughout Asia. But, like any organization, the FBI had its own internal challenges. So while the job was meant to be about fighting terror on the home front, Kathy was more used to fighting sexism. When she joined the FBI in 1987, Kathy was one of only 600 female agents out of a total of 10,000. Her first firearms instructor tampered with her gun to get her kicked out of basic training. It turned out he didn’t think women were suited for the FBI.

KATHY SHEARMAN: It never occurred to me that a man would be that blatant about his misogyny and about his dislike for women. And so I was very, very naive.

NARRATOR: Early on in her career, Kathy even coined a phrase for the behavior she witnessed by male agents. FUMU - F*** Up, Move Up.

KATHY SHEARMAN: Because a lot of guys that I knew actually screwed up on the job. And in order for their bosses to get rid of them, they would promote them to another field office or a higher position. 

NARRATOR: It goes without saying that the phrase did not apply to female agents. The second-in-command at her first field office was just an early, albeit prime, example of FUMU. He broke protocol to ask Kathy if she would date one of his friends, a fellow FBI agent who was going through a divorce. While in some settings this may have seemed like an innocent request, in the FBI it is against every rule. And the agent knew it but he thought he’d spotted an opportunity with a young, inexperienced female agent. Afterward, an older female agent tells Kathy she has two options - either report him or let the whole thing go.

KATHY SHEARMAN: She goes. “But here's the deal. If you do something about it and you report him to OPR, you will wear it. He won't.” And she goes, “What I mean by that is everyone will look at you as if you have a chip on your shoulder. And he will always, always be the hero. He will always be the good guy.” And so I didn't do anything. I did absolutely nothing and didn't say anything. And a couple of months later, he got promoted to another field office because he was caught having sex with the secretary in his FBI car in the FBI garage.

NARRATOR: Eventually - bored of waiting to be promoted among the throng of less competent male agents - Kathy moved herself up. In 2006, she landed in New Delhi, India, as Legat, the FBI’s top representative in several countries across the subcontinent. The majority of her brief is consumed by the growing global terror threat - bombings in Malaysia, gun attacks in India, and a civil war raging toward its denouement in Sri Lanka.

KATHY STEARMAN: I knew that the LTTE was going to target a crowd of people if they were going to target anything where I was. So that was just my mindset. Every time I went down there, I was like, “Okay, beware of buses, beware of bus stops, and stay away from crowds of people.” 

NARRATOR: One of Kathy’s investigations in Sri Lanka led to 13 members of the proscribed group, the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam, being sent down. But when she got back to India, Kathy was now asked to deal with another terrorism case.

KATHY SHEARMAN: There was a subject, I think his name was Aftab Ansari, and he had been the mastermind in kidnapping a very, very wealthy businessman in 2001 prior to 9/11. And he held this man for ransom.

NARRATOR: Ansari was an underworld figure with links to various proscribed terror groups. He had already been convicted as the mastermind behind the 2002 attacks on the American Cultural Center in Kolkata which killed five people. He was already holed up in the Presidency Jail in Alipore, a suburb of Kolkata. But the FBI wasn’t done with him. Ansari was still being investigated for a very specific reason. Back in the 1990s, Ansari had met a man called Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh during a stretch in Tihar prison, the largest prison complex in South Asia. A British citizen who had attended the London School of Economics, Sheikh left his comfortable existence behind to fight alongside Muslims in the Bosnian war. He then ended up in Afghanistan running training camps for al-Qaeda. The Times of London even described him as bin Laden’s ‘favored son’. While Sheikh was a fundamentalist focused on jihad, Ansari was a self-styled mafia don who would work with anyone - if the price was right. Ansari and Sheikh kept in touch upon their release and, soon enough, Ansari spotted an opportunity for a quick buck. He kidnapped the patriarch of one of India’s largest shoe manufacturers. The ransom? Nearly $2 million in today’s money. So, though he’s been imprisoned for one crime, where there’s big money involved you’ve got to keep going.

KATHY SHEARMAN: And so that's why they continued with that investigation, even though he was already sentenced to death for killing five people at the American Center. 

NARRATOR: It turns out that after the kidnapping, Ansari sent his old friend Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh some of the ransom. Sheikh then wired some $100,000 of it directly to a man called Mohamed Atta - the leader of the 9/11 hijackers and who was at the controls of United Airlines Flight 11 when it hit the North Tower of the World Trade Center. And that’s why a kidnapping was being investigated as terrorism. Kathy and her team were the reason all this came to light. They tracked down phone calls Ansari had made to a house the businessman’s family owned in the US demanding the ransom payment. The FBI had established Ansari was behind the kidnapping. The Bureau’s evidence was likely to be crucial in securing a conviction - a huge political and psychological win for both India and America. But, here’s the thing. For the phone records to be admissible in India, Kathy was going to have to testify in Indian court, something that no FBI officer had done before. Frantic negotiations ensued between the various arms of the US and Indian governments with Kathy caught in the middle.

KATHY SHEARMAN: If you're an American, especially an American diplomat, and the foreign country that you're in or working in asks you to testify, you have to basically get permission from the Department of Justice at the highest levels and the Department of State to make sure that what I am testifying to is actually both a crime in India and in the United States. And so, there were a lot of papers and legal documents that had to be drawn up between not just the Department of Justice and the Department of State, but between the US government and the Indian government in order to allow me to testify. 

NARRATOR: Eventually though, the US agrees to Kathy testifying, the chance to convict someone even indirectly related to 9/11 was a real coup in the years following the biggest terrorist attack in history on US soil.

KATHY SHEARMAN: The Indian government was really surprised that the United States government actually agreed to do this. I think they thought it was a long shot, and I had no idea that it was such a big deal because I just thought “I'm doing my job. The Indian government asked me to testify. And if it is within my power to do so, especially on a terrorist investigation, I will make it happen.” And so I did.

NARRATOR: Kathy makes her way down to Kolkata to appear in the courtroom opposite Ansari himself. But when she landed on the tarmac to meet her contact, a man called Mr. Gupta, he wasn’t alone.

KATHY SHEARMAN: There was a whole cadre of soldiers standing around with guns. And I thought, “Is there something you don't know?” And I said to Mr. Gupta, “Is there something going on today?” I was just curious. I didn't think it had anything to do with me. And he said, “Well, Ms. Kathy we have a problem.” 

NARRATOR: Splashed across the newspaper, Mr. Gupta shows Kathy a story about an FBI agent preparing to make history by testifying in an Indian court. Someone had talked.

KATHY SHEARMAN: And unfortunately, it's already been my experience that my colleagues in the Indian government like to leak things to the paper about issues that we would talk about. And I had been yelled at by the Ambassador numerous times because an investigation would end up on the front page of the paper. And I'm like, “There is nothing I can do about the Indian government.” 

NARRATOR: Along with bringing an entire regiment with him, Mr. Gupta had moved the trial from the courtroom to prison. Before they head there though, Kathy is allowed some time to prepare at a local hotel.

KATHY SHEARMAN: And so I got to the hotel and asked for a cup of tea and a newspaper.

NARRATOR: Kathy reads the headline out to herself: Legal history to be made today. FBI man to testify in Indian court. It had my name, but they didn't realize that Kathy was a female and not a male.

NARRATOR: To Kathy, it’s a stroke of luck.

KATHY SHEARMAN: And that's when I thought to myself, “Well, okay, when I get to the prison, they're going to be aiming at somebody else, or maybe some poor Western journalist is going to be the target. It's not going to be me because they think a man is going to arrive to testify.” So even I had to laugh at it and go, “Well, at least they're not going to be looking at me.”

NARRATOR: After a few hours, Kathy, Mr. Gupta, and their traveling army make their way toward the prison. But the military entourage doesn’t fill Kathy with confidence.

KATHY SHEARMAN: The car that I was in was behind a pickup truck. So there were some soldiers and police officers, I guess mostly soldiers, in the back of the truck. And they just looked totally bored, like, “I don't know why I'm here. I'm going to pick my nose for a while. I wish I had a cup of chai.” And I'm sitting in this car behind them and I'm looking at them and I'm thinking, “Well, I hope one of them doesn't shoot me by accident because their guns are pointing right at the car that I'm riding in.” 

NARRATOR: The convoy meanders through the pockmarked streets of downtown Kolkata. Slowly the jungle of corrugated tin shacks thins out. Kathy spots the prison approaching in the distance - a dilapidated red brick palace, marksmen punctuating its crenelated towers. Moving past the gate, the convoy is met in the courtyard by a mob of photographers. Panicked, Mr. Gupta ushers Kathy inside.

KATHY SHEARMAN: When I walked into that makeshift courtroom and I saw the terrorist defendant, he was in this cage. 

NARRATOR: Ansari stares at Kathy, pressing his head in between the bars. Kathy stares back.

KATHY SHEARMAN: Everything that I encountered was unexpected from the way the makeshift courtroom was set up to the fact that the terrorist was locked in a cage like Hannibal Lecter, to all these attorneys sitting there in these black silk robes and white wigs.

NARRATOR: Eventually the clerk shouts for Kathy to take the stand. The judge turns to her and yells, “Madame, please state your name!”

KATHY SHEARMAN: I don't know if he was doing it because he was hard of hearing or if he was trying to let everybody in the whole room hear his voice. But I jumped out of my skin.

NARRATOR: After asking her a few more questions, the judge bellows to Kathy to state her father’s surname.

KATHY SHEARMAN: And I told him and then he said, “Are you married?” I think. And I said, “Yes.” And then I think he was confused because how can I have my father's name and my name? It's the same name. But yet I married and he didn't understand that in America and a lot of other places, it turns out, women do not take their husbands' names. 

NARRATOR: The judge has another question for her though. He asks her: “What is your religion?”

KATHY SHEARMAN: And I said, “None.” And he stops and everybody has to confer with each other, and all the little attorneys knock their heads together and they're confused.

NARRATOR: The judge asks Kathy again, “What is your religion?” And again Kathy answers.

KATHY SHEARMAN: It was like this hubbub broke out in the courtroom. And everybody's looking at me like, “What is wrong with this woman?”

NARRATOR: By this point, Ansari, the terrorist on trial, is smiling gleefully at Kathy.

KATHY SHEARMAN: And finally I said, “May I make a suggestion?” Because they were recording this on an old typewriter that was probably from the 1850s. And I said, “Why don't you just put none? I have no religion, so just put ‘none’.” And after some discussion among everybody, they decided that, “Okay, the answer ‘none’ would be acceptable. So Miss Kathy has no religion.”

NARRATOR: After the initial problems, Kathy’s testimony passes without a hitch. The evidence is damning and conclusive. Stepping off the stand, Kathy is surrounded by attorneys all in English-style courtroom attire - long black robes and white wigs.

KATHY SHEARMAN: And one of them reached out and he touched my arm and he said, “Miss Kathy, your English is very good.” I said, “Well, thank you. I appreciate that. It's my first language.”

NARRATOR: Congratulating her further on her performance, the attorney walks with Kathy toward the exit.

KATHY SHEARMAN: And we pass by the cage where the terrorist was locked up. And I looked over and he was looking through the bars. He sort of like… I think, the scene from… I forget the name of the movie with Jack Nicholson where he's like trying to stick his head through some bars 

NARRATOR: The terrorist sticks his arm out from the cage, beckoning Kathy over.

KATHY SHEARMAN: He's like, “Madam, madam, come here.” And I was like, “Yeah, I don't think so Hannibal.” And I just kept walking. But it was just a surreal experience. 

NARRATOR: The next day the Times of India splashes the trial on its front page again. Only this time, it’s got its facts straight.

KATHY SHEARMAN: The headline in the paper is: Kathy Stearman, a female aged 45, just made legal history testifying in Indian court. 

NARRATOR: Not everyone is impressed. Back in New Delhi, Kathy goes to one of her regular meetings with the US Ambassador - her direct boss in the embassy. He was another in the long line of misogynistic colleagues Kathy grappled with on a daily basis. The Ambassador had a history of screaming at her for just about anything FBI-related that ended up in the news. But given the success Kathy has had in Kolkata, this time he can’t.

KATHY SHEARMAN: And he just looked at me like he was bored with me that day. It's like I can't yell at her today, so I just won't say anything to her. 

NARRATOR: After a year of being Legat, Kathy realized this sort of behavior was part of a pattern imitated by most of her male embassy colleagues. They simply couldn’t get over a woman being the FBI’s top representative at their station. During the majority of her stint as Legat, she’s the only woman out of 70 colleagues. But being a woman had some big advantages in Kathy’s eyes. Not least in avoiding ‘honeypots’.

KATHY STEARMAN: It's an issue, especially overseas, but it’s also an issue in the United States because for those of us who work in counterintelligence or espionage, that is what you're constantly looking for. Is someone going to try to befriend you? If you're a man, is a woman going to try to develop a relationship with you so that they can get information from you? I mean, everyone has seen it in the movies. Everyone's seen it on TV shows. But unfortunately, it happens a lot, more than you think, more even than on TV shows. 

NARRATOR: After a two-year stint in India, Kathy became Legat at the US embassy in Beijing, one of the most sensitive diplomatic missions across the globe. During language training some five years before, she had spent over two years studying Mandarin. She was a perfect fit. But in China, Kathy discovered the problem of honeypots was even more intense.

KATHY STEARMAN: China is a high-threat post, meaning that the Chinese government is adamantly trying to gather intelligence on the United States, the United States government, anybody within the embassy who had any type of intelligence or was privy to any intelligence, they were going to try to recruit that person. And one of the best ways that they had to recruit men in the embassy was to send out honeypots. 

NARRATOR: Honeypots. Typically young, beautiful, seemingly innocent women who try to strike up relationships with male agents.

KATHY STEARMAN: And I saw it time after time after time. There were plenty of guys who would develop relationships with women that they shouldn't have. But in a place like China, especially overseas and in a high-threat post where you get briefings all the time, “Don't do this, don't do this, do not develop relationships with young, gorgeous women because they're not there for your body.”

NARRATOR: Even back in 2008 relations between the US and China were testy. Fraught. The latter was already, almost blatantly, bugging US Embassy staff’s apartments. Kathy was followed conspicuously by a man dressed in a neat black suit wherever she went. And sure enough, the Chinese government did find a flaw in American intelligence security.

KATHY STEARMAN: I got to the point where I thought, “Okay, so there are these men inside the embassy - who built the embassy, who work inside the embassy - and are privy to classified information. And they are willing to sell out their country. They're willing to sell out the United States for a blowjob.

NARRATOR: Kathy helped set up a program that required all staff to report sexual liaisons with foreign nationals. Each person then had to have a face-to-face interview explaining what had happened, determine what intelligence exactly the Chinese were after, and what the agent had divulged. 

KATHY STEARMAN: I actually had guys say, “But you know what? It was the best blowjob I ever had.” Like, congratulations. You've just given classified information to a woman for a blowjob. I don't know how that figures in your head, but okay. 

NARRATOR: One particular high-profile agent was eventually busted during the middle of a ‘meeting’ with a honeypot on his desk. After a brief ticking off from the person employed to deal with these matters, however, the man was kept in post. The State Department had intervened. The agent’s skills were too valuable to lose.

KATHY STEARMAN: There are some US officials who, their job is deemed so important that, well, we can't fire them. We can't let them go. We have to let them keep their job even though they've compromised themselves. And I used to fight against that because my feeling is once you've compromised yourself and once you have shown the intelligence community that you have the propensity to be that vulnerable to a foreign government, you need to go. You need to go back to the United States, and you need to be removed from a position where you have access to classified information. 

NARRATOR: Kathy sensed that the male portion of the intelligence community was circling wagons. Protecting their own.

KATHY STEARMAN: It really just changed my perception about how I viewed men. And it's not that I hated men. I don't. I love men. I have a wonderful husband. But I too started to think, “Okay, so that's it. Every man has a price.” 

NARRATOR: Again and again throughout her career Kathy sees the boys stick together and hang her out to dry. One final event will push her to the brink and lead to her leaving the job she’s always wanted.

KATHY STEARMAN: Whenever you are the legal attache at an embassy, you are basically the senior person for the entire Department of Justice, not just the FBI, but you are the senior representative for the Department of Justice. And when I was in China, the attorney general had planned a trip to China.

NARRATOR: The US Attorney General. The chief law enforcement officer of the federal government. Seventh in line to the Presidency. Kathy is in charge of organizing his trip.

KATHY STEARMAN: People don't understand that when you see two individuals on TV and they're having this light nice little conversation in front of a fireplace. There's a lot of work that goes behind that and it starts months in advance. And part of that preparation is their security because when someone as high level as the attorney general goes to a place like China their security is paramount.

NARRATOR: Kathy gets to work, planning every detail of the trip alongside both Chinese officials and extra FBI security personnel flown in especially.

KATHY STEARMAN: And I thought we had planned for every contingency. And as luck would have it, there's always something that you just don't think about. You just don't think it's going to happen. And the reason things go wrong is because human nature is human nature. And humans are very flawed.

NARRATOR: The Attorney General William Holder lands in Beijing with his own extensive security detail. This was standard procedure. By the time Kathy arrives at the hotel booked out for the trip though, she can see a problem. Holder’s personal security team has cordoned off the hotel he is staying at. Posted across the wall next to their command post are pictures of all personnel they should know and, in certain circumstances, allow entry. Neither Kathy’s face nor any of her team is on the wall. Kathy tries to explain that many of her team needed close contact with the attorney general at certain points of the trip, particularly her hand-picked translator. But there’s no response. The team simply ignores her.

KATHY STEARMAN: The security guys were very arrogant.

NARRATOR: Eventually, the attorney general is due to attend his most significant meeting of the trip, a sit down with a minister reputed to be the third most powerful man in China.

KATHY STEARMAN: So you can imagine the security detail involved in this meeting, in this building.

NARRATOR: The meeting goes well. It’s what happens next, as the delegation is leaving when the problems start.

KATHY STEARMAN: We all came out of the room and were headed to the elevators because after that meeting we were going to this absolutely beautiful, gorgeous, renovated temple where the Chinese were going to hold an official lunch for the attorney general. So I'm standing several feet away from the elevator and I hear this commotion. You know, I hear somebody - like a body - slam against the wall and people yelling.

NARRATOR: Kathy runs over to see what is going on.

KATHY STEARMAN: I saw the interpreter being slammed against the wall. His suit jacket was torn. It was half hanging off his body. And the elevator doors were closing. And I was like, “What in the world is going on?”

NARRATOR: In the elevator are the attorney general and the Chinese minister. After witnessing the whole thing, the elevator doors close on them. Inside they are alone with security but no translator. Neither speaks the other’s language.

KATHY STEARMAN: I thought, “Okay, I'm going to work this out. We're going to figure this out together. I've got to find out actually what happened before I make any decisions.” So I'm getting ready to go into the room where lunch is going to be and two of the ministers’ assistants came up to me and said, “What happened in front of the minister was unacceptable. It was embarrassing. And he wants an official apology.” 

NARRATOR: What Kathy knows though is that official apologies are hugely political. A seemingly minor event threatens to erupt into a full-blown diplomatic stand-off between the world’s two great powers. All on Kathy’s watch.

KATHY STEARMAN: An official apology in the diplomatic world can take many forms and it can be a landmine. And you could just blow up right along with it.

NARRATOR: An investigation gets underway. Everyone involved is interviewed for their version of events. The attorney general’s personal security detail, to a man, pin all the blame on Kathy. 

KATHY STEARMAN: It caused a big ruckus. I had to have the interpreter replaced. And what happened at the end of that whole debacle was the attorney general and that security detail, they were going to have me removed from my position as Legat because of something they did wrong.

NARRATOR: And the FBI agents forwarded to the embassy weeks before? They side with Holder’s team too. They even send Kathy a message to say that it wasn’t her fault but they can't go against the attorney general’s detail.

KATHY STEARMAN: They weren't willing to step forward and say, “Hey, let's support her. We know we have to stick with the guys.” 

NARRATOR: But help comes from an unusual quarter.

KATHY STEARMAN: Ambassador Huntsman came to my rescue and he said, “You're not going to be removed. What happened is not your fault.” He actually called Director [Robert] Mueller directly, and I didn't get removed. 

NARRATOR: The investigation continues. But the result is no less unsavory to Kathy.

KATHY STEARMAN: The security detail didn't get removed either. So there you have it. Without the help of the Ambassador and Director Mueller, I would have been removed for something I didn't do, that the guys knew that I didn't do.

NARRATOR: A few months after the incident, FBI Director Mueller himself visits Beijing. You’ve probably heard of Mueller. He was the guy tasked with investigating Russian interference in Donald Trump’s 2016 election win, an investigation which expanded into examining whether Trump was personally responsible for obstruction of justice.

KATHY STEARMAN: Robert Mueller is… he's a very serious man. He's very fair. And I respect him very much but he's very serious. You only talk to him when he talks to you and there's no chit-chat. 

NARRATOR: At the end of his visit, Kathy escorts Mueller back to the airport alone. At one point, Mueller leans into Kathy and says, quietly, “Can I ask you a question?” Kathy replies…

KATHY STEARMAN: “Well, of course, you're the director of the FBI. Of course, you can ask me a question.” I said, “Of course sir.” 

NARRATOR: He takes a moment, then he asks…

KATHY STEARMAN: “Have you ever thought that you couldn't do your job because you were a woman?” I was flabbergasted.

NARRATOR: How would you interpret that question? Kathy has to compose herself momentarily. “Of all the things he could’ve asked me,”  she thought. Then she wondered, “Should I lie to him? Or tell the truth?”

KATHY STEARMAN: And I thought, “You know what? No, I'm going to tell him the truth.” And I looked at him and I said, “Sir, everywhere I have worked, for the most part, they have all treated me like a queen.” Which is the truth. They never treated me differently because I was a woman. I said, “As a matter of fact, they treated me like a queen. They gave me everything I asked of them if it was in their power to give it.” 

NARRATOR: But then Kathy gets to what she really wants to say and what Director Mueller really wants to know.

KATHY STEARMAN: And I said, “Frankly, I've experienced more discrimination and I've had more problems with the men that I've worked with in the FBI than I ever experienced overseas.” He didn't say anything for a few seconds and he sort of turned away and looked out the window. And then he was kind of quiet. And I said, “And frankly, Director Mueller, you really need to know that.” And he looked at me and he said, “You're right. I did. I did need to know that.” That's when I knew that it was time for me to go. And I wonder if I was ever actually a real part of this organization.

NARRATOR: In the last few months of her time as a Legat, Kathy remembers a story one of her first CBI contacts told her upon arrival in New Delhi, now some five years ago.

KATHY STEARMAN: They said, “Kathy, we have a joke for you.” And of course, I'm all game for it. And I'm like, “Yeah, okay, tell me your joke.” And I could tell from the look on their face that they were so excited to tell this joke, which I'm sure they had told 1,000 times before. 

NARRATOR: Beneath a beaming grin, the CBI agent says: “In India, there are lots of animals trafficked around in boxes. But did you know that when you put lobsters in a box without a lid on it, they still won’t get out?”

KATHY STEARMAN: And I said, “Really? And why is that?” 

NARRATOR: The agent replies, “Because when one lobster tries to climb out, the others always pull him back down.”

KATHY STEARMAN: But I realized that it's the same. That's human nature. And sometimes I felt like that lobster myself especially when it came to the attorney general's visit because I felt like I had reached a goal in my career as a legal attache, which is what I had always dreamed of. And I studied Chinese for two and a half years, and China was my focus. And I finally got to be the Legat in China. And I felt like what happened with the attorney general incident was, it was my own colleagues not supporting the position that I held as a woman. And I felt like that lobster at that moment being pulled back into the box. 

NARRATOR: After years of grappling with terrorism, honeypots, and even her own colleagues, Kathy went home. Despite it all though, Kathy still has a love for the FBI.

KATHY STEARMAN: It's funny, I've had conversations with retired female agents since then and, a lot of them, they don't want to talk about it. They don't want to go there. They don't. They're just like, “Well, you know what? It's over. It happened. What's the point in talking about it? Move on.” And that's not how I feel, though. I really and truly want young women to look at the FBI as a career. But I want them to know the good and I want them to know the bad. I want them to know what they're getting into because when I first went in, I had no expectation that a firearms instructor would treat me the way he did. And I made it through but I want other young women to make it through as well. 

NARRATOR: You can read more of Kathy’s story in her book, It’s Not About The Gun: Lessons From My Global Career as a Female FBI Agent. I'm Vanessa Kirby, and this has been my final transmission. True Spies will return next week with a new operative in charge - Sophia Di Martino. We’ll be on the trail of the most infamous terrorist the world has ever known - Osama bin Laden. Or, if you’re a subscriber to *SPYSCAPE Plus* on Apple Podcasts, there’s no need to wait: you can listen to it right now.